Episode 3 – Maurice and the number 17

In this episode, I’m talking to Maurice Greenhall. He’s circa 83 and he’s been living with HIV since 1984 and will talk about his early life and escapades in Macclesfield, Nottingham, Congleton, Durham, Amsterdam and more – this episode includes tales of working in theatre, teaching and an arrest for Cottaging due to a Police sting – Quite a common occurrence in this age.

In this episode we mention Operation Spanner – in 1987 police in Manchester, England obtained a video that showed a group of men perpetrating acts of sadistic torture, including beatings and genital abrasions. Convinced that this was a recording of men being tortured prior to being killed, the police launched a murder inquiry – Operation Spanner – that involved the questioning of hundreds of gay men.

There is a great video on The Guardian about it

Transcript of Show (auto generated)

Transcript
Murry
Hello and welcome to another episode of Romp, a podcast about gay dating in a time before Grinder. In this episode, I’m going to be talking to Maurice Greenhall. He’s circa 83 and he’s been living with HIV since 1984 and will talk about his early life. And escapades in Macclesfield, Nottingham, Congleton, Durham, Amsterdam and more, including an arrest for Cottaging. I began the conversation by asking him about his. School days in the 1950s.
Maurice
But when I was in my secondary school, I filled my 11 plus
Murry
So you had to go to a sad comprehensive school for your whole school career then?
Maurice
It was the best thing I ever did. We we actually had sex education.
Murry
No, in what in the? The 50s.
Maurice
In the in the 50s. Yes, it was not on the curriculum.
Murry
Some heard of. Oh, OK.
Maurice
Oh, no. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, we were. It was an optional after school after school, OK.
Murry
This is getting seedier by the minute, so.
Maurice
And but the thing was with the teacher, it wasn’t a. A science teacher was actually the music teacher who did the This this thing, this sex education I need. We went through the basics and the you know the biology and then we came to the, the, the. The part. Which is usually missed out, which is the emotional and the effect on personality and. And personal development. Oh, wow. And he and he said, well, at this stage in your life, he said you, you’re in puberty, adolescence and so your bullets will be changing is I’m sure that and you’ll be experimenting with each other. And he says I’m not sure that that your parents. Much rather, you’re experimenting with each other than experimenting with girls and making them pregnant. Wow.
Murry
And why do you think? Because I was. At school in the finished school in the in the 89. And we didn’t have anything. There was no mention of experimenting each other. Why was that teacher talking in that way, do you think?
Maurice
Oh, because he was closeted gay.
Murry
Well, that’s I was hoping for you to say. Yes. Wow. And that that’s and. And how did the school react to that? You know, what did you and the boys are? Andrew, react to that?
Speaker
Oh, no, no.
Maurice
Ah, right, well, well. The thing is that.
Murry
Or was this A1 on one session?
Maurice
No, no, no, no, no, no. This is a group, no, this is a.
Murry
OK, I’ve got. I’ve got different films that going on in my head.
Maurice
Group. Yeah. Yeah. No, you have.
Murry
Haven’t I? Shouldn’t.
Maurice
You have indeed, yes and no. No, this this was a group session and. And you didn’t talk about sex, let alone *** *** or. It wasn’t even called *** *** then.
Speaker
The whole.
Maurice
Business about sexuality and emotions was taboo and so it wasn’t mentioned we didn’t have to keep it secret. We just did. That was just that was the norm. That was, it was accepted. But it did mean that we became rather close as a, as a. As a group.
Murry
When did you first know that you weren’t straight?
Maurice
Then, well, I mean it. It never occurred to me that I was anything other than what I was. I mean, I was always attracted to the same sex. You know that they always boys always attracted me more than girls. I don’t know that I was particularly early in. In my sexual development, but I, but certainly by the time I was eleven, I was. I was already mature, shall we say, and yes, and also.
Murry
Right. OK.
Maurice
Well, he wasn’t just the boys at school. He was the boys in the neighbourhood. As well, you know the.
Murry
So how? How did you get boys in the neighbourhood? Because I’m. I just remember being scared of anyone even looking at me and saying something and getting beat. No. How did you overcome all that? Kind of thing well.
Maurice
But again, that’s it. It’s all the you didn’t speak about it. It was, you know. You were just part of, of playing. But I rather than playing doctors and nurses, I’d rather play doctors and doctors. You know, you’ll. You’ll see that. That’s the thing.
Murry
So you put, you’d kind of push it gently, slowly forward. See how far you. Get with someone or something.
Maurice
Well, yeah, it. It didn’t. It didn’t take long because they’re all of the same similar age and they’re all going through the same. Build them a toss around and very high libidos, and they all have a very high sexual drive. I had a happy childhood, I think. Happy and to listen.
Murry
Was sexuality was gay sexuality? Frowned upon then do you think? Yeah. Because it seems. To be quite open as it was, so it was a.
Maurice
Ohh, totally. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It’s totally, totally taboo. Totally taboo. It just wasn’t talked about. It’s something you did and you did in private and you did it secretly.
Murry
It was a complete taboo. Right.
Maurice
One of the key turning points for me was when one of my regular partners said, oh, he said it’s much better when you do it with it, with when he was tickling my hand and they said it’s much better when a girl does it. Oh, it says that right. So yes, it’s do you dream when you dream? Don’t you dream of girls? And I thought, no, I don’t when I dream. You’re one of the people I dream about, said I. But I didn’t mention that. But I thought, yes, there is a there is a difference here. There’s a difference here. Yeah.
Murry
Yeah. And so that that’s your teenage years. Talk to me what you did after school. What was the first thing you did there? And where did?
Maurice
Well, yeah, yeah. Yes, I was in. It’s in Blackburn. I’m I guess I’m. I’m a Lancashire lad. It was a working class background.
Murry
You go off to and what? OK. Oh, see.
Maurice
I lived in A 2 up two down Terrace house in in, in with the with the railroad not going through the House but right around to the back and so close that you might have thought it was coming to the house.
Speaker
Right.
Murry
And was that outside Loo tin bath? All those kind of standard, stereotypical things? Wow.
Maurice
Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep, absolutely. Absolutely yes.
Murry
A year, a single child. If you got brothers. Or sisters.
Maurice
No, no those. I had three other siblings. I’m. I’m the eldest. Yeah. And then then my sister. And then, then Ken. And then the youngest. Derek and Derek was the first to die. He died at 72017 from the. The nasty flu that was raging. They said it was the worst flu that that have been since the so-called Spanish flu, which is the, the, the great world that they flew after the. Great World War. And I was. I was. I was. I was devastating, you know, so. And it was on Christmas Eve. So, Christmas and never been the same since then.
Murry
Crumbs. So where did we go? Career wise job wise.
Maurice
Well, well, I didn’t. Deal with my with my with my parents. I said look, I’ve already got the necessary qualifications to get into a teacher training college. So when my sister starts work and she starts contributing, can I then go to, to, to? To teacher training college and that was the. So that’s what I do. I and I worked. They wanted people in the employment has change. So, I became a an officer, a clerical officer and I was taking her more than the dog was owning.
Murry
So once you’re working in the labour exchange, what are you doing to prepare for going to teacher training in College in Durham?
Maurice
Although I tried to get to a levels when you’re working and you just can’t give the time that you need to do for, for, to, to, to, to, to, to, to study, and to do well. Yeah. And so I didn’t get my. Levels. But I did get into the collection of Enable beat and it was. It’s fabulous. I thought this is the best, best times, best years of my life but I escaped at the weekends. Yes to Newcastle and yes. And so I actually met somebody there and. That was. So where?
Murry
Did we go escape to what was there to escape to in Newcastle in the late 50s?
Maurice
They, well, they had a gay bar or a bar that was gay at the weekends. And. And I sort of like club, I think it was a well it was certainly an afterhours I think it was a nightclub because that’s where I’m at Eddie. And yeah, and.
Murry
So how did you find out about that? There’s, you know, I had the gay times today. There’s the Internet. How do you know that a gay bar or? Club exists in the late 50s, early 60s in Newcastle.
Maurice
That’s a good question. You, you the way that you, you, you, you met people is was in people’s houses you know you just had parties. And also it was word of mouth as much, much as anything. And yes, a local cottage.
Murry
Cottaging yeah, absolutely. Yes, and I imagine. That was, you know, that was the place because you could you? Could be in a toy. But for those who don’t know, just cottaging, he’s hanging around him, basically in men’s toilets and having sex with other men, isn’t it? That’s the premise of. It so I assume you were there for a user of. Cottages at the time, then.
Maurice
Ohh yeah, yeah. But not in Durham. No, no, but.
Murry
So you would you travel to a different place so that you wouldn’t be spotted or known? How far?
Maurice
Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I gotta. I gotta be straight.
Murry
Did you go?
Maurice
I had to be straight in.
Murry
Yes, of course, yeah.
Maurice
Yeah. And yeah, yeah, so. So it’s Newcastle was the place to go and yes. And I did have an affair whilst I was.
Murry
Up there so, but I’m still we’re still like this, so we’ve. Gone. How far were you travelling to AC? Message and how? And I still don’t know. How we got from there? To. So it’s to a club, but it’s. Just like this is blowing my mind. That I don’t know. You know, train.
Maurice
It’s called a train and I and I actually worked in those days and they were reliable in.
Speaker
OK.
Maurice
Those days. So yeah, I went to, but I often though I coming back from, from, from, from Durham at the end of term, I would hitch.
Murry
Right. Oh yeah.
Maurice
Yeah, your connection, yeah. On one occasion I was, I was picked up immediately. And this guy was saying and what was it like to be a priest? And I said no, I’m. Not a priest. He mistaken my white turtle neck shirt for a. For a dog collar.
Murry
And did he only pick you up? Because he thought, well, he’s. He’s a man of the cloth.
Maurice
It obviously didn’t. Didn’t do any harm. But yeah. Yeah. So. So it was just quite easy in those days, it was sensible it. Was, you know?
Murry
But how do you get from? Cause it’s not as if you drive the weren’t motorways. You can’t just drive down the A1 across the M62 and back. How did you get from Durham to Blackburn then, by hitching?
Maurice
Well, you go. You go from place to place and. Yeah, but the great, the, the great.
Murry
That could take some time.
Maurice
Well, yeah, but you do it in a day. You know all this.
Murry
So now you’re. A qualified teacher. Tell me about your first job.
Maurice
My first job was in Nottingham, which was at the All Age school, right? There and I did have a. A relationship whilst I was there in in Nottingham and Nottingham. Of course it does have one or two bars which are gay on certain nights.
Murry
Yes. Was it usually like a Monday when no one else wanted to go or something, or Sunday evening?
Speaker
Leave left.
Maurice
No, no, no. It was at the. Weekend. It was. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Murry
Well, that’s good.
Maurice
I mean other places, yes, I remember. Well, in Stoke-on-Trent and in when I was in in Macclesfield, there was you went to the Admiral Rodney in Prestbury on a Thursday was a Tuesday and it was in the Market Tavern in Sandbach on a Thursday.
Murry
Right. And was that a known thing? Was that publicised as a? No, no. As an evening, it’s just known that that’s why.
Maurice
Everything was done by word.
Murry
Ah, people don’t believe that anymore. Do. Yeah. I didn’t know you could go to Prestbury on a certain night. Yeah. And was it busy? Was it was there a number of a lot of people there?
Speaker
You’re useless.
Maurice
Fair number of people, fair number of people. Yes, yes. Yeah. But there wasn’t any anywhere in in Macclesfield. OK. Is people’s houses you went?
Murry
Yes, but you can’t knock on the doors. You have to have met them somewhere. Are we still portaging? Are we cruising or how are we meeting people?
Maurice
To people’s houses. And then of course. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes. It’s well, if you’re going to people’s house, it’s used about. Word of. People in our people, in.
Murry
Do you just knock on the door and go? Hello. Was it a certain day and a time that you? Know John’s having a party or certain.
Speaker
No, no, no. No, no, no, no.
Maurice
No, no, no, no. You go to a beer and no, it’ll be a special event. You know, you’ll be expected to bring a food or drink with you. That was that, that was. That was the way it worked. And yeah, I had a great, great time. And I remember somebody saying, Morris said, you you’ve really changed since you’ve been to college. But you’ve become a nicer person. Oh, you were so arrogant. Yes, I really wasn’t. I looking back on my life. I’ve I’m ashamed at some of the ways I treated people, mainly boyfriends.
Murry
In what in what way? And it was this because they that’s. Yeah. You’re in your early 20s there, but then you’re looking back and say I’ve done it, you know, were you quite nasty to people throughout your? Life. Or were you?
Maurice
No, no, he was. I wasn’t. That was nasty. It’s just that I just insensitive and I. Just dumped them, you know.
Murry
Yeah, I always say user and. The user.
Maurice
Also, but then of course it happened to me. You know, I got dumped and it. It really hurts.
Speaker
It’s not nice, is it? No, no.
Maurice
It really does. It’s not nice at all. And so I mean, the other times that I’ve been really in love, I’ve it’s. It’s been so devastating, you know, it’s heart wrenching when things it’s just. Like a bereavement, you know? On the.
Murry
And how many times have you been? In love, do you think?
Maurice
About two or three times. Is the ballet really.
Murry
Of how many years are we talking?
Maurice
Well, the big the. The one that I mentioned, Macclesfield and Nottingham, when I moved from Nottingham, the boyfriend in Nottingham moved with me to, to Macclesfield and so that that lasted about a couple of years or three at the most. And then the one after that. Was the one which. Ohh yeah that that’s coming up to it. This is significant because well it happened whilst I was in Stoke-on-Trent.
Murry
So we’re living in Stoke in the early 80s now. What was it like being gay in that time? What was it like day-to-day?
Maurice
I had to be a straight man.
Murry
Yeah, yeah.
Maurice
You could still get sacked for being gay. You know, so it is it is it is it you know so I guess I went along with that so I.
Murry
And did you were there any times where you thought, you know, I’ve blown my cover or anything like that was? There any times people went.
Maurice
I did blame. I did. I did blow my cover. I. Did blow my cover I got. Got caught Cottaging and in in, in in in in in. By whom? The police? Yeah. They, they, they. They mounted a an entrapment. They got step ladders up and they were peering down into this.
Speaker
Leave country.
Murry
Over the cubicle tops.
Maurice
No way, yes.
Murry
This is the police, you know, were setting. You know, our Jean provocateur were setting people up.
Maurice
That’s right.
Murry
Yeah. And so was there a lot of that about, was it a regular occurrence to be as a gay man? Kind of I forgot the word now not penalised but.
Maurice
Discriminated against? Yes, absolutely, yeah.
Murry
Discriminate against this another, but it’s actually targeted, targeted.
Maurice
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Murry
And so that that must have. Yeah, you, you want to go into a cottage? You wanted that. But the thinking that actually there could be a police at any moment that’s, you know that doesn’t add to the frisson and the romantic side of the occasion. Is it?
Maurice
No, I spoke, but it’s. But it does add a frisson of another.
Murry
I know, but I can’t perform that kind of.
Maurice
I yes. Well that’s shows the difference between. Us, I think.
Murry
So what happens to a man who’s arrested? You know, in in public, in Congleton, in the are we in the 70s now?
Maurice
It’s got to be a decade later. It’s 82.
Murry
Wow. So OK, so even then. You know it’s you think Ohh life has moved on. The world is about place, but no 82. You’re arrested for consorting.
Maurice
That that there was there was. I remember that when I was, yeah it was on about that time maybe a year before or two before when they the police had raided the cottage in. Walton Park having surveyed. With Mike, with fibre optic camera with the fibre optic to substantiate what and they, they, they, they and they well they what they did is that they printed the they.
Murry
So were recording it.
Maurice
Full face of all the people, about 25, I think on the front page of the Sentinel, with their, with their names and addresses. Bloody hell yeah.
Murry
Names and addresses of people who would probably not out were just men having sex with men were probably married with kids and social standing.
Maurice
You gonna keep, collect you collect and full marks to my parish priest he managed somehow or other through his pulling strings to get these opinions of local faith leaders. Well, it was actually be mainly. Church of England, Catholic, Methodist, and Congregationalist I. I don’t think we got as far as approaching the Muslim community or anything outside of that, and so it wasn’t quite the same number of faces on the front page, but there was a similar front page. With a kind of. And to the previous week. So I thought well that.
Murry
That was uh, from what and what did that response say?
Maurice
From people saying that that it was wrong what they had done and just criticising. Yes, Sir. Sorry. I should have made that clear.
Murry
Right. Wow.
Maurice
Yeah, they, no, they were coming. They weren’t coming to back it up. They were there to challenge it.
Murry
Wow. Because and also some, you know, something must go. There’s something wrong with the newspaper as well. Isn’t that wanted to print that kind of story and felt that that was newsworthy and interesting and you know, well, we still look, it was another 10 years, wasn’t it? And. George Michael’s doing it and it was, you know, in fact was probably, is it 20 years when it was 2004. I think wasn’t it and it was still an in public interest thing then. So it’s, you know, salacious.
Maurice
Yeah, but there aren’t. There aren’t any cottages anyways.
Murry
Gossip sells papers and. No, I yeah. I used to work in an office in Manchester and we used to. I used to look at our basic office boy job like you had used to look out the window and I don’t know if on. King Street and Bridge Street, where the big tax Office is there, used to be a cottage there and my office window looked down at and every day at the same time. This red two CV would come in, would pull up outside, he would go in for a little while for quite a while and then come. Out and he would do it. Every day and cottaging and you could see just watch men go in and out. All day, so you could quite easily pick someone up. And if you’re the police, you go right? Well, he is and stuff. So it’s quite dangerous putting yourself out there, isn’t it?
Maurice
Absolutely yes. Well, I well the end of it was that I got I well the. Yeah, the barrister, because the judge said when I came to the bar this this offence carried a life sentence and my barrister said, thank God, Lord, My Lord, Times have changed. And so yeah, that’s pretty guilty. And I got 3, three years suspended sentence.
Murry
A3 year. Suspended sentence for being a gay man and wanting. To get your end away. And what was that like in back in the community for you then after that you?
Speaker
So that.
Murry
Know because I imagine that was public science.
Maurice
Well, just I. I out I was publicly out. Yeah, that’s when my head of department said no, I never thought you were. Again was. I thought you were theatrical. So I’m biased, I said, look, he said. Well, if you want to fight your case for the dismissal from a well, it didn’t get dismissal. They suggested that I resigned on personal grounds. God and I just don’t really want. To go back and to teach you, I really want to do something else. And it was a it was a very good friend of mine, no longer with us. Who said he said. Morris, you, why don’t you just treat this as an opportunity that you otherwise wouldn’t have had? And so I said, what?
Murry
Kick up the **** in some ways.
Maurice
What do you really want? To do, I said. I’ve always. I always wanted to work in theatre. Yeah, I said. Well, go for it. So that’s when I started writing my application letters. Hundreds of well, no, not hundreds on. But it just seemed like hundreds. Yeah, and all coming back with rejections and or nice things. But not no, no, actually office. An interview.
Murry
And that’s just for college. To get into a University Place that the letters or for actual jobs, jobs. OK, because you’ve got so you because you’ve got a general teaching qualification, but no.
Maurice
No, no.
Murry
Drama and theatre qualifications to speak.
Maurice
No, no, no, no.
Murry
Of so bit of uphill battle.
Maurice
But I did. Of course I do. Did have to have my musical called and also the experience of putting on shows and on the on the performing shows and directing and so and so yeah, I guess that.
Murry
Yes. Yep.
Maurice
And she said, have you written to Peter? The Peter in question is Peter Cheeseman, who’s who is the director of the Artistic director of the Victoria Theatre in in Stoke-on-Trent. As it was then in Hartshill I said no. No, because I said OK, but the beach wouldn’t attend somebody like me. I knew that he was homophobic because I think I meant to that. Yes, and. So he said.
Murry
I’m working in theatre and being.
Maurice
Well, no. Why right?
Murry
Homophobic. I mean it’s.
Maurice
It doesn’t make sense. I yeah, yes, yeah, indeed, indeed. So. So I did.
Murry
I fear she does protest too much. Really.
Maurice
And I got an. Brilliant. I’m Peter. Cheeseman gave me my provisional equity card.
Murry
Ohh, so you’ve got one there and so you and it was it that that you needed to be able to work because it?
Maurice
Yeah, this is before my guitar chair before.
Murry
Right.
Maurice
Before my guy that you. You know, put all stop to all that. No, no, don’t you needed that absolutely needed that right and that’s not that’s to be an actor or stage management. And of course I went in as stage management. I thought there’s plenty of really good. Out of work actors and. I asked.
Murry
After work, yeah.
Maurice
No, no, I don’t want to be an out of work. Actor I want. To be an in work. So I that’s why I went for the job as the assistant stage manager.
Murry
And did you and it’s because they always talk about when you hear equity in the old days, it was, I had to choose my stage name or that was registered and stuff. Were you the only Maurice Green. And when did you stay as Morris?
Maurice
No, there’s no other Maurice Greenham. And so I said it wasn’t. It wasn’t an issue. That’s my stage name and it’s my. Real name.
Murry
Brilliant. So we so we got a job. We’re in stoke. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. And how long were you there?
Maurice
I loved it. Ohh I was I was there for about three years. It was just like coming. Home. I just. Felt, you know, I could be myself and I didn’t have to worry about anything.
Murry
And what’s theatre life like, then? What’s you know, it’s a closed off industry. You know, most of us don’t see backstage. And what the world’s like. You know we. Is it the big kind of fame school, happy family stuff or, you know, tell us about?
Maurice
It’s. Well, no theatre life. I well, certainly at the Victoria Theatre it really was like a family because you did more than one show the, the, the same cast did more than one show and so you got to know.
Murry
Theatre life.
Maurice
Yeah, but it’s a dysfunctional family. I mean the. At the best. Of times and then from then when I left there I left in in in 191984 to go down to Derby I went down to be a devastated manager so I learned the craft. Yeah of running a show. I’m going to taking the show from rehearsals into onto stage and running it. Yeah, well, that was that was fabulous. But it’s something I missed out. No. Yeah, because after being there for less than eight. Well, just over a year. I went with my then boyfriend to America. I because we met there’s people that previously in Amsterdam Americans and they invited us over to America.
Murry
So hang on. I just. I was in Amsterdam. We’ve not, we’ve not mentioned Amsterdam yet either. Where? How, what? How did you get to Amsterdam? Who’s the boyfriend? When we were in Amsterdam or why Amsterdam?
Maurice
I was. I was courted by this, this person. I’ve never been courted in my life. But I was courted. That’s what I could call it. That’s sort of being polite, offered drinks, bought presents and things. And I thought this was gonna. Yeah. And the oldest. And I thought this was, I thought this was gonna be the love of my life. And so.
Murry
The old days.
Speaker
The nice one.
Maurice
And he, he said, shall we go to Amsterdam, at the Easter break when the theatre was closed? So I said, yeah, OK. I cannot beat once and. And so he took me around and I. He was like like Charlie in the in the Chocolate Factory says all the a kid in the sweet shop, it was, it was a it was mind blown. Yeah. I come across backgrounds. Back rooms for the first time and I just amazed I.
Murry
I don’t suppose that. Do you remember the names of the pubs and stuff? Because I remember only one called. cock ring, which had a dark room downstairs and I was like, I’m not going down there and I was 30 and I was like, I’m still not going down there.
Maurice
Yeah, yeah. You know, I can’t remember the names though, and but anyway, I had to. Have a go, yeah.
Speaker
Yes you did.
Maurice
Amazing. And we met these Americans, as I said, we went back to their place and. In in, in. In the short, we were invited to go back to, to, to, to America. But in in the summer. Yeah. And I said I will leave it a year and no, it’s real to go now and that’s fine. That’s what we did. And I was there. We picked up a an STD.
Murry
Right.
Maurice
And we went to the clinic in Atlanta, GA and had penicillin shots. I thought I was clear, but he certainly wasn’t. And so when we came back to Stoke, we both went to the GM, the medicine, the company.
Murry
The gum clinic. Yes. Yeah. I can’t say the whole word. So yeah, it’s just complaining.
Maurice
It’s the generic urinary medicine.
Murry
The STD, the clap or the Clap clinic, the clap clinic.
Maurice
Or see you at the club. We should just round. The corner from where I live. You’ve obviously.
Murry
Been putting it out a bit in the old states then you know you didn’t sit at home getting STD’s, did you?
Maurice
Now, but I’ve only had unpenetrated sex with my partner. So that’s you need to be the better the man and but so. So the results came and unbeknown to either of us, we were also tested for this mysterious disease.
Murry
OK, right. Oh, unbeknown.
Maurice
2 gay men coming back from America with an estudy will be better testing for this.
Murry
Of the thing.
Maurice
It’s mysterious to see the other thing. Wow. Yes, they. Although they didn’t have a name for it, they knew that it was a retrovirus. And yeah, and so they I think they was more or less the same test not earlier versions of the test they using now the ELISA test and the Western blot test and so the.
Murry
So without your permission.
Maurice
No, no, no, no. Cancel. No, no, no, no permission, no nothing. And the results came back. My partner was negative.
Murry
Right.
Maurice
I was positive. I thought you got it. Wrong. You got it wrong. They did. The retest still came back positive.
Murry
And you just said I was only having penetrative sex with my boyfriend. Yes.
Maurice
And so yes, and so I, but I thought it somehow or other it had piggybacked and that’s where I got it from. But of course, as you know and everybody knows, you cannot catch HIV from somebody who doesn’t have it. In fact, because as I said that I didn’t pose, I had unprotected sex that was. Right. Then I couldn’t have got it from him. I would because he didn’t have it, so it must have been earlier. And of course, in those days it took three months to be absolutely sure of a test and three months before.
Murry
You did. You have to, you know. You had to wait, didn’t you?
Speaker
Then yeah.
Maurice
Where was I? And I’m stood down. I was totally devastated. I thought that was going. To be the end of the world.
Murry
Well, there’s no treatments, was there? They you, you know, today we have antiretrovirals, you have your 3 pills a day. Your combination therapy then they’re just going. Sorry, can’t help you. I.
Maurice
Suppose. Well, maybe it’s because I was doing some, which I really loved and I just threw myself and into work and I and I’m just. Waiting for the disease to speak for itself, and it kept very silent. Yes, I was asymptomatic for almost 10 years.
Murry
And were you going there for? Were you now in the system and having regular checkups so they could they even count your T4 cells and all those levels viral load levels and stuff?
Maurice
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Murry
Was that available? Which is what the first Test was. Doing anyway I.
Maurice
Suppose yeah. Yeah. So the CD 4 count was gradually going down. There’s no question. And I was offered AZT when it. Came out came. Out, yeah. Yeah. But The thing is, you see, I was well. Yeah. And I was enjoying my life in professional theatre. Yeah. And so I said no. And also I knew. Where did I get my information from? Capital Guy picked views whenever it was called at the time and also a body positive that was really.
Murry
There was the pink paper as well, wasn’t there at the time pink paper? I used to pick that up.
Maurice
That’s pink paper. That was it.
Murry
In the 90s.
Maurice
Yeah, yeah. And but I was gonna information from the body positive newsletter, which came out. And also. From gay men’s health crisis in New York. Well, as well as. What’s it called in the similar organisation in San Francisco project positive, whatever it was, is it project? Inform project inform San Francisco. So I was.
Murry
Right, OK. And this is not through the Internet. How are you getting this? The Internet didn’t exist, were you? No snail mail, snail mail, good or waiting for the post to.
Maurice
Arrive. Yeah. And that’s how you met up with people then? Yeah, that was another means of communicating with people. Classify ads in the.
Murry
And so you know I’m. Gonna do it cause I’d used to. Use classified ads. But how did it leave you sexually? And in a, you know from having this HIV diagnosed or aids as it was then, you know, where does that leave you in relationship wise and wanting and having sex? Were you still doing it?
Maurice
Well, my partner at the was with me at the time. Gradually. Well, he moved himself out of my life. Umm. And I. They just blamed him, you know. Is the HIV. And he said he wasn’t. And looking back, I was thinking because of what happened to his subsequent partner, I thought, yeah, no, I mean, I wasn’t really a good person to because I was always. Way you know, I was. I was racing in London or I was. I was running a show in, in, in, in, in Birmingham or in Liverpool. Well, we’re on tour. And so I was. I was never. Never properly at home, so there is I’ve got factor that into it. So it’s not all his fault, but I certainly was heartbroken, no question about it at all.
Speaker
Right.
Maurice
So yeah, that’s how that’s. So that that that was the earliest and I said I was, but I was relatively well until 1994 and that’s when it.
Murry
Because, they said tea was just poison, wasn’t it? Was a horrible drug. It was, you know, it saved lives.
Maurice
It. Yeah, but it killed as many as it as it saved. And then when they discovered that it was half the dosage was twice as effective or more effective.
Murry
Yeah, I can imagine, yes.
Maurice
I mean, I was still well, so I refused it then it was only when it was quite obvious that something was major happened that was going wrong, which was in 1994. That’s when I was. Yeah, I’m supposed to be working on a prestigious new production with a. Production meeting in London and I and I woke up and I just didn’t know. I just panicked because I got to be. Another gotta be. Another and my car was already packed, so I just got in and went and. And it was just like I drove away and I was with the fairies. And I don’t mean dancing in the nightclub, a gay nightclub. I was. I was. Not, apparently. Apparently it was. It’s been described, described clinically as a fugue state what had happened. HIV had gotten to my brain.
Murry
Not with it.
Maurice
The outcome of it was that that I arrived in London, but I didn’t know where I was. I didn’t know why I knew I had to be there, but I couldn’t possibly get to the rehearsal room in time. And so it was. It was just a mess. And I ended and it all came. I started to sort of come round when I was in Vic. Train station and I bought some some food and I and I thought, oh, I could do with a milkshake or something. So I left my stuff and I was halfway to the to the to the, the, the, the counter and I thought ohh I mustn’t leave my belongings understanded. And so I went back and I couldn’t find. And my black leather jacket. I couldn’t find my food and I went round twice, I thought. I’d been robbed. And it was only then that I said that I came to and I went to the railway police and reported it. And they had been following this, this, this guy, apparently. And eventually I was I was really united with my stuff, but at that point I have nothing. I got no credit cards and I got no cash. And so I thought. Well, what I can? Do is. I can confirm my mate who’s in on the show in in the West End. And so I phoned him and even she came to the phone and said get into a taxi. So I’ve got no money. I said get into a taxi. Terry will play at the other end and so I went and I stayed with them and they were they’re just like angels. And after all this, you know, they just have kinds. So that’s when I first broke down and. And in tears and yeah, the IT was wonderful. So look, you got you go home tomorrow. We’re gonna burn these and. You can borrow these jeans, and because I was in a mess and so that’s what I did. And I went back to the to the rest from the following day. And again, then I went looking for my car because I lost my. Car you see? And they said that that the second the spot came.
Murry
Which is what you needed, really, wasn’t it? You know, you were in any fit state. To be doing this.
Maurice
No, no, no. Well, the outcome, it was that I was hospitalized and I and I got a an AIDS diagnosis in six months.
Speaker
Right.
Maurice
And the defining illness was HIV and Sophie, or encephalopathy or salitis, means dementia. Yeah. And so that that accounted for the fact that I was. I was his problems with losing things, not just credit cards and glasses, but.
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
Maurice
I am. Well, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the cash to be paid out to actors that was in an attaché case I lost the attaché case. Fortunately, I got. I went back to the cottage when it was a bit lighter and I had opened the curtains and. It was there, yeah.
Murry
No. So you’ve been cottaging as? Well, in all the middle.
Maurice
Of this, no, no, no. No. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, absolutely not. Just going back to.
Murry
Oh, you need after the call of nature.
Maurice
Yeah. Yes, that’s right. After the shower, I went home and the curtains and found it so that those must have been. Yeah.
Murry
Oh, the cottage. You’re actually staying in? Not an actual, not a public convenience cottage confusing me, man.
Maurice
Yes, yes. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I’m. I’m so sorry. Yes, I should have put the. Yes, all the stage management register for, for why we’re on tour.
Murry
All right. OK.
Maurice
This is the this is the.
Murry
I take it back about you going out cottaging with all the cash then.
Maurice
No, no, no, no, no. We were in the cultures we actually. Rented it and it was only it’s not getting. Opened him.
Murry
Any better this Renton cottaging?
Maurice
You’ve got to be careful with your terms, haven’t you? Yeah, there’s language just so important. But then then, after that, there was the car.
Murry
The code it’s useless, isn’t it?
Maurice
And I kept losing it and I invested in a tracker to say to be tracked. Yes. So the next time that I lost my car. I phoned the police. I’ve lost. My car, ohhh said. But it’s alright. It’s got a tracker on it. Oh, so we don’t. We don’t operate one of those unless it’s cars being. So the next time it happened, I said my card’s been stolen. Oh yes, I said. I’m where you calling from? I’m calling from the northbound service station on the wherever it was on the M6. Oh, they said. Why don’t you go across to the other side and have a look and just see if it’s there? I said no stepping in and just do that. And of course. In those days, the other side of the of the services were identical, absolutely identical. And of course I’ve been cottaging. And so I just lost track and so I went.
Murry
You turn left instead of right at the loop.
Maurice
When I went to the other side of the South side, as I thought is the north side, which it was there so that so that was that, but it is.
Murry
Wasn’t Knutsford services was it?
Maurice
Well, there’s other nuts. Yeah, one of the others, yeah, we’ll be.
Murry
Yeah, they both had quite notorious cottages back then in those days, didn’t they? Yeah.
Maurice
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, that’s right. Yeah. So. So that was that was that was that. And yeah, I got hospitalised. And as I said 6. And so I thought I’d better keep my brain out to that’s. Yeah, that’s. And that’s when I went back to, to college and started doing courses there and yeah, and.
Murry
And that was that’s 2530 years ago. We’re getting on for now. So it’s obviously, yes, you’ve been on obviously treatment has worked ever since then. You’ve obviously kept up a good regime.
Maurice
It’s 1994199419, yeah. Well, I was. I was. I was fortunate because I was around when the delta trials that was. The, the, the, the good trial after the one the trial the good outcome that tested AZT alongside DDI or DC. Right. And on this, this combination. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly, before triple combination before that and that I think could build with the time.
Murry
So is the first therapy, yes? Yeah.
Maurice
To be around for the Proteus in your business in in 1996. Yeah, I was on return of it, which is.
Murry
To come and move on to the next one.
Maurice
Massive I just you know it’s well. And also I was given the wrong dosage.
Murry
And it really takes. A while to get used to it, doesn’t it and figure it out.
Maurice
Yeah, yeah. You’ve got to have you don’t start on the full dose. You start on 50% and it’s but my excellent consultant knew everything and he said he had a holistic approach to with this dealing with approach that’s really sounds excellent that’s so forward-looking but what it meant by holistic was not what I thought of by being holistic. What he meant by best thing is that I know what’s best for your body, mind and soul, and that’s what counts. So I had. I had a run in with him, you can imagine. Yeah, I moved from I. I switched my care from them from here to North Manchester to someone who I could trust because I’d met him at symposiums and HIV and he’s supposed in London so yeah.
Murry
Well, you did touch on. Contact ads because I was. A big proponent of contact ads in the in the early ads. When I first came out.
Maurice
What? What? What? What? He. Well, here’s an unusual take on that one. What are you? What I put into the body? Positive news newsletter was musician people wanting to make music. Does it? Yes, yes. Just make music and some people of course, thought that that was a euphemism. And I, but I but I wasn’t. I just, you know, thought it would be interesting for people to meet up and to play duets or.
Speaker
Right.
Murry
You’re not, it’s.
Maurice
Piano duet not going well.
Speaker
Not work wet.
Maurice
Yeah, but, but voice and piano or instrument and piano. I met some lovely people, but people just did respond. And I did meet some lovely people and we and some of them were really very good players. And so that was, you know, it was good I you know. I enjoyed that so. That was an unusual take. The classifieds? Yeah, I wasn’t after sex.
Murry
It indeed yes, because. And the whole thing the back has fan adds was the complete. It was so complicated because she had to. To write your letter to the box, you had to put that in an envelope. Write the number of the box behind the stamp where the stamp would go. Put that another envelope. Send that on.
Maurice
That’s right. That’s. Yeah, I guess so, yeah.
Murry
Yeah. My very first boyfriend was through. I met through a contact card I sent.
Maurice
Oh my goodness.
Murry
I sent a letter and a reasonable photo cause had the actual proper printed photos that we never had them ourselves. It was a really weird thing and this is 1990 and I sent it off and. A week or so later, I got a letter back saying thank you. You know, here’s my contact details and then I had to phone this. Found this person up and it’s like I even ran away from. I was at Halley University. And I ran as far away where I walked as far away from the area as I could. So I. Could go on the phone box and ring him so that no one would see me and stuff like. That So what? You doing in a phone box? I’m using a phone. So I had to. Ring this person, it’s the scariest thing. I think I’ve. Ever done? But I used to meet quite a few people through them. There were, you know, VW E GSOH all those kind of acronyms. You got used to it, didn’t you? You know, we all wanted the VW and A and V GSOH, so it was a. We’ll just laugh and. Have a good time, didn’t. So what else did you go out? And meet people.
Maurice
I’ve gone to the leather scene after I had my AIDS diagnosis, I think, and this was in Manchester? Yes, so.
Murry
In the in the R.E.M.
Maurice
Well, you start in the ram, then go to Napoleon’s and then there was a club which was near the fire station. The old fire station in Wicker St in it was Piccadilly.
Murry
Oh. It was Rockies at one point, wasn’t it in the 80s and late 80s, early 90s, yeah.
Maurice
And some of the Rockingham right, remember the Rockingham that well now you see that’s the other side of Albert Square there there’s a totally different area make a.
Murry
Where’s that? No. Right.
Maurice
Note of that and cheque.
Murry
Well, it’s long gone, isn’t it? Because the village basically was anywhere that the you know, there was no central place where there was the RAM and there was this Central Park and there was the Napoleons, but there wasn’t the village as we.
Maurice
Oh yes.
Murry
Know it today.
Maurice
No, but there was New York that was that was that, that that was that was that was that was going then yeah.
Murry
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. One of the first bars I ever went into. New York.
Maurice
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Murry
But the leather see you run the leather scene in a mule cap. Never like chaps harness.
Maurice
Yes, I got one of the got one of those got one of those. Yeah got on those. I’ve got chaps got leather, leather, leather. And jeans and on the top. Yeah, it’s a lot. Yeah. But The thing is, most of the time it’s just posing. Yes. Yeah, a lot of posing.
Murry
Yeah, and no accent.
Maurice
And no action and then but the good thing about it is that it was. A lot of there was there was a camaraderie that that built up. If once you got to know people and then you formed your individual cliques and then yes, that’s when I was very strange encounters there because you got involved in in, in in in groups. And I.
Murry
Does the word sling mean anything to you, Sir?
Maurice
Can’t remember. Well, novel nothing you mentioned that there was a curious instance of, of a, of a couple and another couple. And there was me and my friend. And we quite fancied each other anyway, but we were went. We went along as willing slaves that were to. To the to their place and the thing is, they had a dungeon. But the don’t.
Murry
And this is in a private house.
Maurice
This is in a private house, but it isn’t a tourist house. In fact, they had two houses. They had one house and they the next door where one of them the of the parents of all of the, the lads lived. But she was poorly and I’m not quite sure what the situation was, what we had. To creep up the stairs because the dungeon wasn’t down, it was in the attic and it wasn’t in the attic of the of the house that we went to. It was in the attic next door.
Murry
So, and where’s the mother and the mothers below in bed?
Maurice
Well, I think she was on the on the ground floor, so there was, there was space between her, yeah.
Speaker
OK, wow.
Murry
Men coming and going at all hours.
Maurice
Yes, I want. I don’t know. No, she wouldn’t know that. But no, they were very discreet. There’s a lot of discussion about it, but The thing is, is that you were. Yes, it was the. What was the MSC which sells for the motorcycle club. But it could be. Really the M and the S should be changed round. It was again a bit like Polari, and as the back was slang, so it was really SMC, which is *****, saying that’s so that’s so that’s.
Murry
Mm-hmm. Yeah. So you and your friend went along as willing slaves as cottons.
Maurice
Or. Or dominance or whatever you follow was what that was. Required the but the thing is it it’s people from other places came up to Manchester and people from Manchester went to other places. So we went down to Brighton. Yeah. And so that that was fabulous and.
Murry
But of course, around this time there’s Operation Spanner isn’t the famous one where a load of gay men were having consensual S&M sex in a house and were arrested, you know, so there was still a risk. And this is the 90s, and this is still a risk to you and me as gay men.
Maurice
That’s right, yeah. Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Murry
You know, you couldn’t even do that. Phone home.
Maurice
No, no. No. So yes, so there we are that’s that. And then it all sort of changed in there, my goodness me.
Murry
Well, it does.
Maurice
But not until not really, until the turn of the turn of the Millennium.
Murry
Yes, 2000. Yeah. And that’s when the Internet started in the early the, that’s when the Internet start, we started dating there and stuff, so there was less and the scene started to I think kind of started to decline because it wasn’t there.
Maurice
But late 90s, late 90s here, here.
Murry
Meet people you know you used to go out to meet people and to socialise. And we didn’t do that as much, did we? We were more visible, we were more accepted. So I think the gay scene has kind of diluted ever since those times. But actually, looking back, it was really necessary and the times because you’ll talk about the leather scene and community, HIV and AIDS, of course. From the R.E.M. Came Manchester.
Maurice
Well, that’s.
Murry
Pride, didn’t it, you know.
Maurice
And George House trust, of course. And the and the national land. And well, I’m deposited in NW which no longer functions.
Murry
Early days. I mean Wally range. I went to their place in Wally Range. Yeah.
Maurice
Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. Yes, I did, lie said, I yes, I was. I was. Not found. But I mean, I certainly went along in the early days there and also the national long Term Survivors group.
Murry
See, I don’t know. I’ve never heard of that.
Maurice
Right. Well, it’s now called high vitality sounds like a protein drink. They started off in 1992, but it was 1994. As I said, when I got my AIDS diagnosis and it was about 1997, when I actually. Eventually managed to catch up with them and they were in Cheltenham at the time we moved from there because it became too expensive and because we were having problems with the with the war. Because folk, we’re, we’re. We’re really enjoyed and says let the hair down on the in in the evenings and there’s a lot of cross dressing. Nice. Yes. Well, yes, but it wasn’t approved. Or when they moved up to Shallowford house. And so they, their cross dressing had to be turned down. Oh well, this this is in, this is in the 90s. There still wasn’t as accepted as it is now. Nothing like nothing.
Murry
No. When you look at what Drag Race has done for drag, yeah, you know, it was always. Kind of Les Dawson and Roy Barraclough kind of drag. Yeah. Or it was fufu Lamar’s drag. Yeah. Analogue. And it, you know, it’s just unbelievable, isn’t.
Maurice
It would you do you know that? I remember Lizzy savage. Really, I remember Lizzie Savage from the live performance. Yeah, and guess where none other than.
Murry
No, no. London’s Vauxhall Tavern. Wow.
Maurice
The Vauxhall Tavern in London. Yeah. Yeah. And she. What was the? She had a little fox. It was actually a fur fox, but could it zippy or something like that? And she was so amazing. Yeah, I thought I don’t. I don’t want to get. And the wrong. Side of her.
Murry
No, and I used in the early 90s. I worked in a bar in Manchester called Atlas Bar, which is at the end of Deansgate and one day I heard this voice. So I was like. That’s Lily savage. I recognise that. Voice looking round. Of course. There’s nobody. No, in a big in a 6 foot wig and all this kind of thing. And there’s this grey haired man in his 50s at the time. And you know there’s Paul O’Grady and you know, before the fame that he got now. And I got his autograph on the back of my bar tab.
Maurice
Wow for God.
Murry
Thing things. Yeah, I was like, oh, my God. I don’t know what he was doing in. Manchester but he was.
Maurice
In my bar. Yeah, well, I’m talking about bar work. Oh, yes. Well, I worked at both the Rembrandt behind.
Speaker
It was lovely.
Maurice
And also at the Rockingham Club and I was, I was promoted to the cocktail. Bar at the back.
Murry
What did that mean? Something I’m not I’m not getting. Was it actual cocktails?
Maurice
No, no, no. No, it was cocktails. But no, no, it’s it was just another bar.
Murry
Yeah, yeah. So as we come to the end of our conversation, why don’t you tell us a bit about what you do? A day-to-day basis. Now you’re in your 80s.
Maurice
A lot of my time this day is taken up with the North Midlands LGBT Older Peoples Group. That was founded by myself and one or two others in 2009, about 5 as a gay man in the Leopard in Burslem in the Cold Winters Day. But The thing is, yeah, it’s just grown and grown and so much so that in 2019. We had to become a charity.
Murry
Oh wow, that’s good.
Maurice
So we’re a registered charity now.
Murry
Now it’s time to talk about playlists. I know you’ve sent me your e-mail with your songs on, but once I find that list because I’ve not got it to hand, can you tell me what? On it.
Maurice
Well, first of all, it was Freddie Mercury queen, yes.
Murry
The show must go on Ohh communards for a friend. Uh, that that album was just lovely, wasn’t it? I just. Yeah, but it’s a.
Maurice
For Fred, that’s right. Absolutely. And you know.
Murry
Van Halen jump.
Maurice
You know, you know the story. About that, don’t you? No. Well, it was the friend was Richard Coles, of course, Richard Coles had told them that he was positive and he wasn’t.
Murry
And he wasn’t.
Maurice
He wasn’t there with him.
Speaker
You may.
Maurice
He fancy a vicar saying that.
Murry
These men of. The cloth and look at him on Radio 4. I didn’t tell you talk about Amsterdam and the **** ring and the communards. I had a fight with Jimmy Somerville in a bar in Amsterdam in the courtroom before I let you go because I’m gonna have to let you go at some point. Part of the show is about me. And I kept very sadly in the early 90s. Kept a list of all my dates. And when the lottery, because I was sad, there was nothing else to do. There was no phones, there was no. There was no Internet, was there and. Television wasn’t really. Good. So and when the lottery came out in 93, we needed to choose our six lottery numbers, didn’t we? So I was like, right, I’m going to go to my facts as we call it now and I am going to. Get my 6 best from there and get them a lot of numbers and they’ve been the same ever since, but what I’ve done I’ve got 1 to 49 so I’ve got there. Just happened to be at the time 49.
Maurice
All right.
Murry
Different meetings to. Discuss and to record and so I’m asking people that as they do the podcast to pick a number between one and 49 and I will see what I can remember find from my details of them and I will tell you whether it’s one of my lottery numbers. So pick a number between one. 49. 1313 isn’t one of my lottery numbers, and 13 was. Summoned in December 92 called Mike I believe, let me just see if I can find. And where would I put December 92 in here because it doesn’t go back that far. Right. Let’s have a look. Mike was. Let’s see if I can find anything about him. So. Oh, Mike. #13. This is very sad. I was living in Hull at the time as a student, so we had a Vauxhall Tavern, but it wasn’t anything like the same Vauxhall Tavern. And he was from Glasgow. And all I have got written down here was October 1992. He was one of 1233 Mark 3 mikes and he had a Rover 216. That’s all I can tell you about it. Oh, so it’s he scored quite highly. 8/6 and seven. So I used to give them scores, so there was a. Whether I fancied you or how good the sex was. Yeah, so there.
Maurice
OK. Oh, I see. Yeah, alright. OK. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
Murry
Was. Yeah, you got Mark three different things and he got an 8A6 and A7, but he wasn’t. He isn’t in. The top six of my.
Speaker
Shanks. Black. OK, OK, OK.
Murry
I can’t tell you anymore about that. No, that’s a shame. No, we might. Brilliant stuff. So thank you so much for being with me today and giving me your tales and your history. I’m amazed there’s been some brilliant things in that.
Maurice
Yes, I haven’t told you about my about going to the, the, the, the Royal Garden. Party or my. Invitation to the Portcullis House suite. The norm from following or the invitation from Lord Fowler to go to the House of Lords in October this year.
Murry
Wow well.
Maurice
For another day.
Murry
That’s on that on that. Then we’ll leave it there and we will leave the listener. Wanting more so. If you have a story to tell about gay dating in times gone by, whether it’s cottaging cruising contacts or clubs, or anything else, e-mail me at podcast at romp Dot Media. Now there will be a new podcast along soon. They’re like of us, not entirely sure when there may be one. Maybe three will come at once, but I’ll get you another. One out as soon as I can.

1987. Politics: Operation Spanner